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Matth
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JERRY2KONE
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Matth - 04.26.2011, 03:01 AM

Where is the cheapest place to purchase A123 cells. Their site states that they only do large volume business and do not deal with individual projects like cars or e-bikes. I think that may be our best bet for setting up an E-bike configuration and keeping the overall costs reasonable. I want to make sure that I end up with the power required for such a setup, but also enough capacity for a good long ride. So is there any place special that gives good deals on A123 cells that will fit the bill and maybe a discount as well. Not sure of exactly what I would need, but with a little research I am sure that I can figure it out. That motor kit recommends at least a 48volts, 20amp setup which I would assume means 20,000mah, right? I wonder how long of a full power ride that would give on average if you were to put together say a battery pack 48volts with 20,000 mah capacity? Doing the math on electrical stuff is not my best atribute. I see that they have more indsutrial battery packs already made up that would be awsome, but the cost of those would easily be $1000 just for batteries. Hardly a budget project.


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snellemin
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04.26.2011, 08:26 AM

I found this site a while back through a different forum. Prices look ok.

http://www.a123rc.com/goods-468-Exci...TIC+CELLS.html


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Prismatic cells look nice.
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Prismatic cells look nice. - 04.26.2011, 09:25 AM

Thanks again Snell for the info. I was thinking about those prismatic cells as well, but I am not seeing the voltage on them? At $51 a pop how many would one have to acqure for the (48VOLT, 1000 WATT HUB system? Just trying to get a good picture as to what getting my bike setup for this. I also much rather prefer the split/twist throttle because it is more like a motorbike, which I am used to. All of the info is great and the pricing is pretty good as well. Escept that is for batteries when you add everything up. Cells can run you quite a bit, and acquiring a custom pack would be even more so. No matter how you do this your looking at pretty much $1000 to $1600 for a good setup that will move you around easily even up hill, and cover a fare amount of milage on one charge. Hell one could easily run back and forth to the local market and fill up on food without breaking a sweat.


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snellemin
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04.26.2011, 09:54 AM

Those prismatic packs are just like the round ones, which is 3.3v nominal. So you would need like 20 of those bad boys. But if you do so, you could probably do 40 miles at full speed. More if you can control yourself. I calculated about 3Ah for 5.5 miles, give and take headwind, and some hills based on my datalogs. This morning I was still averaging 25mph on my 14s Lipo. Tire pressure set at 60psi for both front and rear.


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snellemin
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04.28.2011, 06:11 PM

I build up a ghetto battery pack consisting recycled laptop 18650 size batteries. Total of 13s4p setup. Startup is sucks, as there is not enough Amps. So more pedaling is required. But once you start to roll, it will go all the way to 25mph on a flat road. It just takes longer to get there compared to the lipo pack. Battery pack was at 109F at the end of the trip to work. A 6p pack would do better. I'm running at the max continuous ampdraw of the pack. But now I'm averaging 500W, like the system is rated for.



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Great specs
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Great specs - 04.29.2011, 12:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by snellemin View Post
Those prismatic packs are just like the round ones, which is 3.3v nominal. So you would need like 20 of those bad boys. But if you do so, you could probably do 40 miles at full speed. More if you can control yourself. I calculated about 3Ah for 5.5 miles, give and take headwind, and some hills based on my datalogs. This morning I was still averaging 25mph on my 14s Lipo. Tire pressure set at 60psi for both front and rear.
This setup sounds like it would have some great specs and more like what I would like to do on my bike. But man that would be over a $1000 just for those batteries plus all of the work putting the right pack together, but what a great battery pack that would be, right? Seems to me this would be the best way to go for a really good e-bike.

I build up a ghetto battery pack consisting recycled laptop 18650 size batteries. Total of 13s4p setup. Startup is sucks, as there is not enough Amps. So more pedaling is required. But once you start to roll, it will go all the way to 25mph on a flat road. It just takes longer to get there compared to the lipo pack. Battery pack was at 109F at the end of the trip to work. A 6p pack would do better. I'm running at the max continuous ampdraw of the pack. But now I'm averaging 500W, like the system is rated for.

Just seems like a whimpy way to go for what you are trying to do. No take off power and going up hill would be terrible, right? The A123 pack is a much better option if you ask me. All of that work putting together that pack and then having to peddle like a mad man just to get up to speed is not a good option if you ask me.


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Last edited by JERRY2KONE; 04.29.2011 at 12:18 AM. Reason: ADDING INFORMATION
   
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snellemin
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04.29.2011, 02:17 AM

Building that ghetto pack was a learning curve. Seeing what the little batteries can do under max load for 20 minutes. I know what they can do in tools, flashlights, laptops and RC. But I never knew what the capability would be in a bike for example. I can always use those packs in my kids power wheels or stick them in my souped up flashlight. I made my home-work-home commute without needing to recharge. I used up 6000mah and voltage dropped enough to trip the low voltage cutoff intermittenly. So now I know the cheapo ebay setup does have a low voltage cutoff and a over voltage protection. So the Ebay setup is not so bad afterall.

Have no fear, because my new controller is being shipped to me. Bad boy is suppose to run sensorless and support high rpm's. Also capable of running 100V and currently set at 45A max. Controller is set to run on 12s and 16s for now. But I have enough to run 22S 5000mah. But 85V will require some plugs and wire upgrades. Not something I would want to mess with right now.


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Great info
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Great info - 04.29.2011, 02:49 AM

Well its good research on your part and will save a lot of us time and money trying to figure these things out on our own. Reading through your E-bike experiences should help out a lot for anyone trying to figure out the best way to go on their own E-bike porject. I know it is helpoing me out a lot. I really do like the cheap Chinese hub/wheel kit for sure, and those Prismatic batteries are just awsome, but the price is pretty steap for the average Joe. If there was something similar technology wise for half that price that would be the way to go. I do like their smaller Lipo batteries that look like lawnmower batteries. That would be another option, but anything we do outside of the prismatic cells will involve using a much larger setup(weight & size). I sure wish that CC would start making Lipos for R/C applications. That would be very cool.


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snellemin
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04.29.2011, 11:10 AM

If I remember correctly, Castle did have batteries at one point. Dunno what happend with that one. A123racing/Enerland is out of the hobby market. Not enough sales to justify that market sector. Acepow had a good chemistry, untill the bossman screwed up. So all that there is left is Hyperion as a quality pack. And how many people will really spend big money on a battery pack, when they can get the same capacity for 50% less. Not many, I'm guilty of that one myself. So in my eyes, it will be a gamble for Castle to make any money in the current USA market.

My 4s Acepow packs have a cell resistance of 0.9 mOhm on average when charged at 30A. At 40A charge rate the resistance doesn't register for a 1p config. That is not bad at all for a 67 dollar pack, considering the A123's are at 8 mOhm. Difference is that the A123 can put out some serious amount of Amperage in an instant. More then my logger can record. But you can see the difference in RC's. My GTP for example has faster launch on 4s2p A123, compared to the 4s1p 5000mah Acepow. The Acepow will have a greater topspeed, but in a dragrace it's too late.


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All good points
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All good points - 04.29.2011, 11:48 AM

All good points Snell, but remember CC has a factory in China already, which would make it fairly easy for them to start fabbing up Lipo packs and shipping them stateside or wherever to make some money. With manufacturing in China they should be able to keep overhead down and make a reasonable profit, and at the same time provide a competitive price for the hobby. So I think it would be a win-win for CC and for us.

I have not had a whole lot of experience with anything but the nickle/metal batteries. I have a couple of Lipo packs but have not even gotten to use them because of our move. Plus I have not wanted to invest a ton of money into Lipos while waiting for the prices to drop to reasonable levels. Lets be real here making Lipos is not any harder than making alkaline batteries. SO charging these rediculous rates just because they are the newest technology on the block has to run thin at some point. Personally I don't see why Lipos should be any more expensive than Nicads or Nimtl batteries. It just doesn't make sense to me. Even something like those Primatic cells at $51 a cell is pretty greedy if you ask me. $25-$30 would have been plenty, but anything with a new design seems to get jacked up just because it is somewhat unique until the chinese knock offs start coming out. I don't even see how Maxamps stays in business with their outragious prices. Anyway all good info. Thanks.


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snellemin
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05.03.2011, 12:25 AM

I'm at 18s Lipo now and did a test run at 31mph. I'm using a sensorless controller with the same ebay motor and same dinky thin wires with 4mm bullets. I blew up my eagletree in the process. But I verified the speed with my Iphone GPS. 31 Mph on a bicycle is stupid fast and scary.

update:
Went 34mph. Peaked at 3600W and only used 2000mah to my commute to work this morning. Got to love HV setups.



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Last edited by snellemin; 05.03.2011 at 09:47 AM.
   
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snellemin
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05.04.2011, 12:00 PM

Pulling 1000W average at full throttle.


Sipping power 19mph@318W


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snellemin
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05.05.2011, 03:16 PM

I went 37mph on 20s1p today and the front felt light. I'll keep it around 25mph and only use my max power leaving the stoplight. I ran full speed to work. Hub was 110F or so, but the kicker is that I only used 2500mah at that silly speed.



6 KiloWatt A123 Racer
GTP-Pletty Big Maxximum+RX8. GTP-C50-6L Hacker+RX8. CRT.5-Pro4+ZTW esc.
24s2p EVG SX 49.6mph Ebike.
18s4p Raptor 60mph Ebike. 11.5KW

Last edited by snellemin; 05.05.2011 at 03:41 PM.
   
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05.05.2011, 07:36 PM

Nice! You've got a really sound setup! Are you running your Lyen yet?
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snellemin
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05.05.2011, 09:04 PM

Thanks,

Yup, that's with Lyen 12 fet sensorless controller.


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