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Timing advance
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Stoomstrijkijze
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Timing advance - 08.16.2010, 09:54 AM

Hi Castle,

I'm sure you guys read about the new feature on the Tekin speed control. I read on serveral boards that it helps the temps down and the top is higher. The team drivers went from 2050kv to 1900kv on 4S and from 1900kv to 1700kv.

What it does:
When you hit a certain RPM, lets say 22k rpm, the timing goes up with a predefined value and you are able to reach high speeds on the straights. When you going back under the 22k in the corners/technical parts, the timing goes back to 0° for more control and efficienty.

I guess this would a nice feature for the MMM ESC's too. You'll be able to use lower KV motors, more efficiency, lower temps, easier to drive, same/higher top speeds and that with the reliability of an MMM ;-)

I think a lot of racers are interessted in this feature. Please let us know what you think about it!
   
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Arct1k
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08.16.2010, 10:25 AM

They have it on the MMP - only works with sensored ESC's

CHEAT MODE, Castle’s High Energy Advanced Timing allows users to electronically advance their sensored motor’s timing to extreme settings. This can often yield just that extra bit of power needed to win the race. Be careful – there’s never a free lunch, extra power comes with extra motor heat!
   
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Stoomstrijkijze
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08.16.2010, 10:28 AM

Woops I didn't know that. I have only 2 MMM's for my buggy. And never used the 2nd one actually :p This thing won't die :D

So the timing advance feature works only with sensored combo's? If the new software can read the real KV of a motor, I can't be hard to know at what speed it spinning right? Kv*voltage?
   
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kvrc
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08.16.2010, 11:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arct1k View Post
They have it on the MMP - only works with sensored ESC's

CHEAT MODE, Castle’s High Energy Advanced Timing allows users to electronically advance their sensored motor’s timing to extreme settings. This can often yield just that extra bit of power needed to win the race. Be careful – there’s never a free lunch, extra power comes with extra motor heat!
No it is not the same. Tekin does this while the motor is in a sensorless mode, in fact you can use this feature with sensorless motors. That is why they say the motor can run cooler and still give more power.
   
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Pdelcast
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08.17.2010, 11:16 AM

BUT -- in sensorless mode the timing is limited to about 20 degrees of advance -- which is the same as "high" timing in the Mamba series.

In sensored mode, the timing can be set much higher (like "CHEAT" mode --) but the advantage only works with very poor performing motors (like the ROAR motors...)

Most sensorless motors are much less sensitive to timing than the ROAR type motors. So the advantage is very very small to advance the timing -- usually you can do better by running low timing, and using a slightly larger pinion than you can by advancing the timing.

NOTE -- ROAR motors are an exception -- they are so badly designed that they benefit tremendously from timing. Don't make the assumption that a good quality motor will also benefit from additional timing.


Patrick del Castillo
President, Principle Engineer
Castle Creations

Last edited by Pdelcast; 08.17.2010 at 11:19 AM.
   
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Stoomstrijkijze
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08.17.2010, 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdelcast View Post
BUT -- in sensorless mode the timing is limited to about 20 degrees of advance -- which is the same as "high" timing in the Mamba series.

In sensored mode, the timing can be set much higher (like "CHEAT" mode --) but the advantage only works with very poor performing motors (like the ROAR motors...)
Yes, but 10-15° timing advance should give you around 10% more KV's. Which means you can drop 1 teeth on the pinion (or maybe 2). Then you drive it in the tight, technical with 0° and 1 teeth lower = lower temps, more efficiency. And on the straights the timing goes up and you don't lose any speed than with your previous setup.

I don't own a Tekin system myself, but that's what read on the boards and it looks very promising.
   
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kvrc
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08.17.2010, 02:06 PM

Patrick Tekin says you can set the initial timing just like the mambas in sensorless. Then they say you can also choose a certain amount more timing to come in at a pre set rpm to give a power boost without actually having the motor in sensored mode.
Like I have said, I am not versed on what it actually takes to make this happen I am just telling you what Tekin is promoting their Rx8 esc can do. By the way this feature is swaying guys that had swore off the Rx8 to pick them up again to see what it is all about.
   
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Stoomstrijkijze
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08.17.2010, 02:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kvrc View Post
Patrick Tekin says you can set the initial timing just like the mambas in sensorless. Then they say you can also choose a certain amount more timing to come in at a pre set rpm to give a power boost without actually having the motor in sensored mode.
Like I have said, I am not versed on what it actually takes to make this happen I am just telling you what Tekin is promoting their Rx8 esc can do. By the way this feature is swaying guys that had swore off the Rx8 to pick them up again to see what it is all about.
Yep, I'm thinking about getting a Tekin combo for this feature. From what I read on the boards the firmware is working very well. I'd like to know if Castle is also buzy with something like this, then I stay with the MMM.
   
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snellemin
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08.17.2010, 03:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdelcast View Post
Don't make the assumption that a good quality motor will also benefit from additional timing.
+1

Most of my 2 pole motors don't see more than 5 degrees of timing advance and my 4 polers are maxed out at 8 degrees.
Only my roar stuff sees more timing at times. Why, because they need it. But I don't run them much as they run way too hot.

My personal opinion between the MMM and RX8 are(I own 2 of each):

1. Tekin is much smoother than the MMM in sensorless mode.
2. Build Quality of the Tekin is better than Castle. However the Castle controller board has seen a big improvement in it's last revision.
3. Both produce monster power.
4. Castle software is much easier to use than Tekin.
5. Castle stuff is much cheaper compared to the Tekin.
6. Both have excellent service.


6 KiloWatt A123 Racer
GTP-Pletty Big Maxximum+RX8. GTP-C50-6L Hacker+RX8. CRT.5-Pro4+ZTW esc.
24s2p EVG SX 49.6mph Ebike.
18s4p Raptor 60mph Ebike. 11.5KW

Last edited by snellemin; 08.17.2010 at 03:31 PM.
   
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Stoomstrijkijze
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08.17.2010, 03:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by snellemin View Post
+1

Most of my 2 pole motors don't see more than 5 degrees of timing advance and my 4 polers are maxed out at 8 degrees.
Only my roar stuff sees more timing at times. Why, because they need it. But I don't run them much as they run way too hot.
Quote from Tekin about their T8 motors:
Max Timing will raise the kv of the Y wound motors 150 to 200.
Max Timing will raise the kv of a Delta motor 100 to 150kv

I guess this is also true for the Neu/Castle/Tekin 4 pole motors cause I heard they are all based on the original Neu motors.
   
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snellemin
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08.17.2010, 03:40 PM

Sure, but you also forget that there is a kv drop that needs to be calculated as well. So in the end it's only marginal increase when pushing for more timing. I personally only saw an increase in motor temp, when increasing my timing on my quality motors. I didn't notice any speed gains. On my cheapo motors I did see increase in speed.


6 KiloWatt A123 Racer
GTP-Pletty Big Maxximum+RX8. GTP-C50-6L Hacker+RX8. CRT.5-Pro4+ZTW esc.
24s2p EVG SX 49.6mph Ebike.
18s4p Raptor 60mph Ebike. 11.5KW
   
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Stoomstrijkijze
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08.17.2010, 03:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by snellemin View Post
Sure, but you also forget that there is a kv drop that needs to be calculated as well. So in the end it's only marginal increase when pushing for more timing. I personally only saw an increase in motor temp, when increasing my timing on my quality motors. I didn't notice any speed gains. On my cheapo motors I did see increase in speed.
The point about the new fireware is race with lower KV motors and keep the same topspeed. The extra timing only kicks in on the straight so you maintain the same top speed with a 1700kv then with a 1900kv motor, but in the technical sections, the 1700kv motor is easier to drive than a 1900kv motor.
This results in less heat, more efficiency and the same topspeed or even higher.
   
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snellemin
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08.17.2010, 03:53 PM

I've read what the firmware does. And it's nothing than what a smaller motor with a higher kv wouldn't be able to do(less torque, easier to drive). Or even messing around with the current limiter. A properly size 2 pole motor would have the same effect.
But this is strictly my opinion base on my experience with a variety of setups.


6 KiloWatt A123 Racer
GTP-Pletty Big Maxximum+RX8. GTP-C50-6L Hacker+RX8. CRT.5-Pro4+ZTW esc.
24s2p EVG SX 49.6mph Ebike.
18s4p Raptor 60mph Ebike. 11.5KW
   
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