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lincpimp
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07.28.2009, 08:16 PM

I would just like to make 3 points...

1. Price sells stuff...

2. Being voted best anything by any of the rc mags is meaningless. For example I have no nitro race experience whatsoever, yet I can go on any of the rc mag's websites and vote on my favorite racing nitro fuel. I could vote purely based on the attractive bottle, or the cool color of the fuel. However, while my vote counts, my lack of experience has not prohibited me from voting... Just saying that everyone who voted for maxamps being the best lipo most likely had not tried all (or even a few) of the different mfg's lipos and come to the conclusion that MA was the best. I can also say that I did not vote on anything, and I have owned a load of rc products (lipos, radio gear, escs, motors, etc.). So flogging products based on pointless pools is not really a good idea. For all we know the vast majority of the voters could be comparing the performance of their MA packs to some venom stick packs, and we all know that most any lipo will outperform the best nimh out there.

That being said i will definitely agree that Maxamps is an industry leader in pilo advertising. Public image and awareness are very important for any company selling a product or service, and I will congratulate you (Austin) on doing a tremendous job at that.

3. Surge ratings are useful, but unless you have logged info about a specific setup, you really have no idea what said setup can draw. I can imagine the neu powered speed vehicles of Nic Case are pulling way more than the motors are "factory spec-ed"... Voltage drop under load is very important, a123 cells show that while they can handle a 60c load, the voltage drop is unacceptable (to me anyways) so the fact that they do not fail is almost irrelevant. I see you spec the 60c rating at over 3.2v per cell, but then go on to spec the pack at 3.7v per cell. Big difference in cell quality in that range of 1/2 a volt per cell. Suggestions of comparing the surge ratings of the lipos to the surge ratings of the intended motor is not a bad idea, but knowing how the motor was tested is vital. Most motor specs are determined with a prop, so not much use for the land rc user.

I do realize it is difficult, many new users are jumping in to larger scale electric rc, and really have no idea what they are doing. People want nitro+ speeds out of their electrics, and I doubt every 1/8 scale vehicle will be able to do that with your 4s pack in question. I can see a truggy geared for 60mph with a CC/2650 setup pushing that pack very hard... You may want to specify it is for an 1/8 buggy setup for racing speeds (such as 40mph), just to cover yours....

Last edited by lincpimp; 07.28.2009 at 08:20 PM. Reason: I can't count... Or Speel
   
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  (#32)
dezfan
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07.28.2009, 08:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinelse View Post
dezfan,

My whole point is that the constant C rate does not mean anything. Some manufacturers test loose cells in a pack and then rate the pack based on the loose cells. Some test with 5 awg wire that is an inch long soldered directly to the tabs of the cells. Some consider it a constant rating if it lasts more than 10 seconds at over 3V. Some allow temps of 160 degrees. Some use cooling over the cells. Some test the cells starting at 50 degrees. THERE IS NO STANDARD.



-Austin
Understandable, but again it doesn't address your marketing which states:

"As you racers know, the most important factor for your batteries is voltage under load. This LiPo pack boasts a 60C rating for all your amp hungry racing setups. It will maintain higher voltage under load than any other LiPo battery pack on the market."

If the C rating doesn't mean anything, why the emphasis on the 60C rating in your marketing?

I am far from an expert on this matter, but isn't this contradictory?

BTW, thank you for the civil manner you use to discuss this topic. It is a pleasant change after dealing w/ other representatives from MA.
   
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austinelse
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07.28.2009, 08:26 PM

suicideneil,

Why do you always show up around the time that anyone else online starts to busts my chops?

From past history, I know that you LOVE to bash on MaxAmps at every opportunity. I personally don't have the time or energy get into it with you again, and again, ...and again. You don't like us. Thats ok. You don't have to be so abusive:). You are kinda like the bully on the bus who is always flicking my ears just to get a rise out of me.

dezfan,

I am not sure what is confusing. We are changing from using C rate over to using surge watts because C rate means nothing.

Electric Dave,

THANK YOU!!! Sometimes on these forums, the only people willing to state their opinions are the bashers. I appreciate it.

-Austin
   
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  (#34)
austinelse
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07.28.2009, 08:33 PM

I have to head home for the evening. I will not be able to respond again to this thread till tomorrow at the earliest. Thanks for all of your input and lively discussion.

I really do appreciate it, even if it is sometimes hard to take the criticism along with the input. We stay on the cutting edge by always improving and we don't know how to improve if all the feedback we get is good.

Best Regards,

Austin Else
CEO MaxAmps.com
   
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  (#35)
BrianG
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07.28.2009, 08:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinelse View Post
Brian,

You can tell us your opinion of what the standard should be, but no matter how much influence you think you have, all the manufacturers are not going to "conform" to your standards.

You stating what you think the standard should be will not make it the standard. Thinking that your standards are the "standard" is crazy...
I am not conceited enough to believe I have any influence. It doesn't matter what I think the standard should be, as long as there IS a standard. My post didn't say "this is what it should be", it said "it should be some along the lines of...". Someone made standards in other industries (car audio amp ratings are a good example), so it is possible. My whole point was to develop something quantifyable and consistent. The actual values of v drop, temperature, etc is up to you.
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  (#36)
Arct1k
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07.28.2009, 08:48 PM

Austin - Thanks for coming back to RCM

All - As per Brian's comments this thread will be actively managed...

A debate about ratings etc is interesting and useful - We also are debating a product which none of us have tested...

If surge = burst then these numbers are doable IMO - Enerland is releasing 43C Continuous packs next month which I'd guess would have a burst in this range...

The newer MA pack I have 4k 3s hardcase is working well - It significantly out performs my older 3s 5k which struggles greatly with a CRT.5. I would add that MA replaced my original 3s 5k that lost a cell which no issues.

I also do appreciate the constructed in America point - look what just happened to Medusa!

That said lets keep it civil - If Linc can do it you all can!
   
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Arct1k
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07.28.2009, 08:49 PM

How about ROAR - I'm surprised they haven't set a standard.

The do destructive tests - could they not do a C test on all ROAR certified packs?
   
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  (#38)
suicideneil
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07.28.2009, 08:51 PM

If C rate means nothing, why state "60C", unless its the only way to show the surge watts is what Dezfan means.

But then "~4000 surge watts" means nothing as R/C ground based vehicles only pull surges of current for very short durations, usually under rapid acceleration, or when doing backflips etc; noobs will look at that figure and expect they can pull that much current repeatedly during repeated burnouts and using the throttle erractically.

The continuous rating is much more useful as thats what vehciles pull once they achieve top speed (down a straight or across a field/ parking lot); a continuous level of current. You can just as easily look at the maximum continuous power level a motor will pull on any given voltage, and work out how many amps your lipo pack needs to put out in order to sustain those power levels continuously. Again, continuous makes much more sense given the way we drive our vehicles, although for drag racers and top-speed record setting guys knowing both conrinuous and burst/surge ratings might be handy, but I tend not to nail the throttle every couple seconds for a few milliseconds, so it isnt that handy to me peronally (or racers in general).

Besides, Im not trying to get a rise out of you, Im just trying to get some answers to questions that I see get asked all the time, yet there is no responce to specific questions when you have the (equipment to get the) answers mopst likely.

I'll leave you in peace though, I've berated you enough for now...

Last edited by suicideneil; 07.28.2009 at 08:53 PM.
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dezfan
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07.28.2009, 09:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by suicideneil View Post
If C rate means nothing, why state "60C", unless its the only way to show the surge watts is what Dezfan means.


That is exactly what I was getting at.

Thanks.
   
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redshift
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07.28.2009, 09:12 PM

Why is it always about the warranty.... speaking of, (and not to start vicious rumors) I had read words to the effect that MA would only warranty packs that were sold directly from MA. Can you elaborate on this?

Why is a Power Force 30 amp power supply $30 more than it is from Hobby Lobby (another US company)?

And yes I understand the thread is about a new MA pack, but to me things like the above are quite telling, and this begs the question... how much are your customers paying, percent-wise, for the warranty alone?

And I am fairly sure I still don't see graphs anywhere.

As some of the other posters stated, I'm not looking to flame, and I would love to see MaxAmps thrive as much as any other company!

Thanks for your time Austin.
   
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  (#41)
lutach
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07.28.2009, 09:39 PM

I would love to just see some real solid rating. I know real manufacturers of 100C capable cells with burst capability of up to 250C, but this technology is a long way from us consumers though. I hope this Hobby comes back to reality soon.
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  (#42)
lutach
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07.28.2009, 09:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianG View Post
I am not conceited enough to believe I have any influence. It doesn't matter what I think the standard should be, as long as there IS a standard. My post didn't say "this is what it should be", it said "it should be some along the lines of...". Someone made standards in other industries (car audio amp ratings are a good example), so it is possible. My whole point was to develop something quantifyable and consistent. The actual values of v drop, temperature, etc is up to you.
Brian,

There should be a standard and one will come if some poor kid gets hurt because he tried to get 200A+ out of his battery. Who knows, the poor kid might be trying to get his KO Propo to put out 780A. Maybe that guy from California will start a law suit against all this false statements and then we will see some earth like ratings instead of this Alien technology we see coming out. We will then know who to blame for making our Hobby so dangerous with crazy claims. I will back them up by saying, there are still a lot of dumb, uneducated, common senseless people out there who will fall for this and one will only profit from it.
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  (#43)
skellyo
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07.28.2009, 10:11 PM

I'll add my $0.02 here...

The prices need to come down, period. If another reputable manufacturers pack of a similar capacity fits my needs and is $60 cheaper, what is the value-add for me to even consider MaxAmps?

Note: Price comparison based on MaxAmps 4S 5250mAh $239.99 vs. Hyperion G3 VX 5500mAh $172.95
   
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  (#44)
Unsullied_Spy
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07.28.2009, 10:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skellyo View Post
I'll add my $0.02 here...

The prices need to come down, period. If another reputable manufacturers pack of a similar capacity fits my needs and is $60 cheaper, what is the value-add for me to even consider MaxAmps?

Note: Price comparison based on MaxAmps 4S 5250mAh $239.99 vs. Hyperion G3 VX 5500mAh $172.95
+1. The way I see it there are only 2 good reasons: 1) They are a U.S. company and employ U.S. citizens (help our own economy, screw China) and 2) Warranty service. I've used Maxamps packs in the past, and while my experience with the packs themselves was far from enjoyable the warranty service was excellent.

Good to see Austin in here, from my personal experience he's a good guy to deal with.

Austin: Do us all a favor and can Jason, nobody can stand him and I think there are some of us that even hold back on your products because he's the face of Maxamps, the guy we all see on the forums (poorly) representing your company.


All I ever wanted was an honest weeks pay for an honest days work.
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Finnster
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07.28.2009, 10:22 PM

I'm all for Maxamps pushing an industry std as long as it makes sense. Many people do not like McDonalds or Walmart, but they are able to have heavy sway and set stds for the industry due to their large influence.

In the end, I think its the only way a std will be set, if one lrg company aggressively pushes it, and the smaller guys jump on board until their is at least a lg plurality of consensus.

There needs to be some fleshed out methodology as Brian suggested (Time, temperature and Vdrop) and the merits of burst ratings can be debated, but overall I think its fine as long as it can be done consistently and reproducibly. It really doesn't matter if the spec is somewhat BS, as long as everyone is measuring their packs on the same BS-o-meter.
   
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