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BL_RV0
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07.28.2009, 10:32 PM

The reason maxamps is able to charge such high prices is because they advertise so much. I have nothing against maxamps- although I did have a few of their packs, most of which puffed, but those are older cells so I believe the newer cells may be better. It's also nice to see Austin on here, someone we can actually talk to. I'd like to give maxamps another shot, but the prices are simply too high. Maybe MA should can some of their advertising and make their packs more reasonably priced, having their target market being experienced RC users, rather than noobs.


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Last edited by Arct1k; 07.28.2009 at 10:44 PM.
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Unsullied_Spy
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07.28.2009, 10:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnster View Post
I'm all for Maxamps pushing an industry std as long as it makes sense. Many people do not like McDonalds or Walmart, but they are able to have heavy sway and set stds for the industry due to their large influence.
People buy the cheap crap from WalMart and McDonalds for the same reason people buy Zippy/Turnigy lipos: They're cheap and it does the job. If it lasts 1/2 as long as a pack costing 3x-4x as much it's not really a bad investment (and if you crash and kill the pack you don't lose as much $$$).


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Arct1k
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07.28.2009, 11:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsullied_Spy View Post
People buy the cheap crap from WalMart and McDonalds for the same reason people buy Zippy/Turnigy lipos: They're cheap and it does the job. If it lasts 1/2 as long as a pack costing 3x-4x as much it's not really a bad investment (and if you crash and kill the pack you don't lose as much $$$).
yup and there is a good reason why America has such a high trade deficit and US jobs keep going overseas...

The only reason there is not a buy american campaign is that they own $800bn worth of US treasuries and could sink the US if they didn't roll them... but it would be mutual destruction as they'd loose their money...

It is the cold war again but instead of nukes it is trade in plastic junk and the odd bit of lithium...
   
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Snipin_Willy
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07.28.2009, 11:10 PM

I for one would like to see this topic continue down a civil and technical discussion rather than seeing remarks as MA customers being "noobs".
And aye, it's hard to compete with zippy/turnigy/rhino batteries with their price to performance ratio. I became a believer after I tried their packs in my CRT.5: 4s 3000mah, 20c battery running a mini jammin with a 1509 and gladiators for wheels. 16T pinion to boot. Battery barely gets warm. Best part is they only cost $27!

Oh wait, forgot to post something useful:
It would be wonderful if a standardized testing method was established. But it's going to take a lot of leverage from an organized and funded group to get something like that rolling. Seems like nationally, ROAR would be the only group that could reasonably require battery quality testing to be done from different ROAR legal packs. And think of what that would do to the cost. It's like putting the government in control of health care.....

Last edited by Snipin_Willy; 07.28.2009 at 11:16 PM.
   
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dezfan
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07.28.2009, 11:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnster
People buy the cheap crap from WalMart and McDonalds for the same reason people buy Zippy/Turnigy lipos: They're cheap and it does the job. If it lasts 1/2 as long as a pack costing 3x-4x as much it's not really a bad investment (and if you crash and kill the pack you don't lose as much $$$.

The thing that sells me on Zippy besides the price is that for 25% of the cost of more expensive packs, I get equal, and many times longer life spans out of them.

And, lets not forget that Zippy packs are not the only packs from the far East, while MA assembles their packs here, MA cells come from the same region.

Last edited by dezfan; 07.29.2009 at 12:40 AM.
   
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sikeston34m
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07.28.2009, 11:49 PM

Always before and even more in this struggling economy, Price is the #1 selling point of almost any product.

This whole C rating discussion. Continuous C ratings versus Surge Watt Ratings. (or whatever you want to call it)

Much like FET ratings, there is an acceptable amp draw that a pack can sustain throughout the life of it's charge. This is especially useful and required for the fly boys.

Continuous "C" rating is a level of amp draw that the pack can hold a certain voltage at for most of its discharge capacity without damaging or substantially shorting it's cycle life. It is a level of amp draw the does not damage it.

We can talk about how there is no standard if we want to, but it is the rating system that has always been used. Accurate or not, given by the manufacturer or given by the retailer.

We can also argue about how it's not standardized. Weither or not discharging equipment is calibrated the same or variables in the tests were not equal.

How a pack performs all goes back to how it stands up under varying loads and is PROVEN on an accurate discharge graph along with pack temperature readings.

An ESC that is rated for 200 amps continuous can handle 1000 surge amps for 1/2 a second. But they don't rate them for surge. They are rated for continuous duty.

A motors wattage rating is based on how many amps on a given voltage it can sustain without failing. It's efficiency and alot of other things affects the final rating. Even then, the actual application changes the entire scenario. We could talk about airflow, the applications ability to shed the motors heat, or we could talk about the load that's on the motor.

The load that is on the motor will be the most influencial thing about that motors rating. Is it a stable and consistant load? If it varies, then how much? How much starting torque is required? Does it soft start? Or is it required to start under full load and instantly go to 100% as fast as it can?

Sooo many variables in the motor rating scenario. How can we come up with an accurate way to rate batteries using such a wide array of applications and motor types? I don't think that's possible really.

This accuracy would depend on that accuracy........blah... blah. But in the end, if things aren't right, there's at least one more person to point the finger at. It's whoever rated that motor wrong, isn't it?

Lipo technology is still young. It's still developing. In the Marketing world, there's still a race going on.

It's not about marketing or awards. It's about performance and longevity.

In the end, it's not just about who can put the highest number on a pack or a cell. For those of us who are educated and do our research, it's always going to come back to an accurate Discharge Graph.

Instead of pointing fingers and making claims of having the VERY Best Product, why don't we work together to aggree on a rating standard?

But that's a secret isn't it? It would place imbalance in the market as it is now. If everyone is open and honest about their packs and how they perform, then the race would change into a price war. Oh we can't have that, now can we?

As far as "buy American" or "This costs more because we employ Americans", let's hope we all do.

The fact of this is though, All Lipo cells are made overseas. Aren't they?

They are ALL imported. Mostly because of the laws we have passed through the EPA, and how we have a tendency to regulate everything, Especially Chemicals.

In the Engineering World, China is kicking our butts, along with alot of other countries.

So how about it? Can we see some discharge graphs?
   
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zeropointbug
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07.29.2009, 12:25 AM

Austin, please, you have not answered a single technical question we have asked.

See THIS, why can't MA supply us with a graph like this? Or at least

http://www.flightpower.co.uk/index.asp

or this.

http://www.impaktrc.com/product_info...oducts_id=4546


Just because MA believes 'there is no standard' doesn't mean you can abuse the power/freedom of that, as even mentioning the surge rating WITHOUT even a HINT of a continuous C rating is ridiculous, and really is false advertising to unknowing consumers, namely begineers.

Austin, also, when I said that no one trusts you, I meant to say no one HEAR trust you, at least no one I can think of.

Like Lincpimp said, just because you are 'rated' number one trusted battery manufacture... that doesn't mean ANYTHING, nothing, no thing. Just because religion is wide spread and many ppl believe in it, doesn't make it true. Just because McDonalds is the number one crap-food restaurant in the world, doesn't make it good for you. You guys are big, no doubt, and you guys have alot of influence, no doubt, but again that does not give you the right the advertise that you have the 'best battery in the market today' as you did. I have little doubt that RCaction rated you the best maker because you have the highest paying advertising in there mag.

About the C rating again, you say there is no standard, well there was a resemblance of a standard before you showed up with your '60C best battery on market' lingo. I am not saying that continuous C ratings mean anything - but relatively, they held water with the high end packs such as FP, Hyp, Neu, Polyquest, and the rest of the Enerland based packs. Now, with these new generation packs (G3's, TP PP 40C, Neu 40C's, Fullymax, to name a few) the ratings are consistent as far as I can see; but again, only relatively. You are right that most manufacturers only rate their packs C rating based on SINGLE CELL performance, and obviously a cont. C should change slightly when in a pack... but companies like Hyperion actually state their packs Ri, and not just a single cell multiplied by cells in the pack.

What I would like to see is pack Ri on all batteries, that is basically what it comes down to, isn't it? Ri would be the simplest, shortest way of saying what the performance of pack is. But also, when you increase the cont. C rating, the pack Ri has to go down exponentially, because waste heat is delta V (voltage) X amperage... as you increase the amps, you have to have MUCH higher voltage holding ability, not a linear thing here. Example:

Now I am not an expert by any means about waste battery heat, efficiency and C rating, but this is just my take on it, or what it should be, based on some simple technical characteristics of a lipo battery.

Let's say two given packs from the same brand/manufacturer are at the same state of charge, and both are sitting at the same resting voltage, say 4.0volts.
We have a 20C cont. rated pack, and a 40C cont. rated pack from the same manufacturer, both are 1000mah capacity.

20C pack: @ 20C discharge holds 3.2volts/cell, so 4.0v subtract 3.2v = 0.8v ... multiply that by the amperage, 0.8v X 20 amps = 16watts of heat output.

40C pack: @40C discharge holds 3.6volts/cell, so 4.0v subtract 3.6v = 0.4v ... multiply that by the amperage, 0.4v X 40 amps = 16 watts of heat output.

My point here is when you double the C rating, you need to cut the packs Ri to 1/4 of the previous lipo.

But then along comes another argument, that well at the 40C discharge, that 16 watts of heat is not going to raise the temperature as much as the 20C pack because it's half the time. So what, I think it should be heat output power, period.


“The modern astrophysical concept that ascribes the sun’s energy to thermonuclear reactions deep in the solar interior is contradicted by nearly every observable aspect of the sun.” —Ralph E. Juergens

Last edited by zeropointbug; 07.29.2009 at 03:12 AM.
   
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Electric Dave
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07.29.2009, 09:12 AM

All this talk about testing...the only number that matters to me is my laptimes. So long as the product is safe and reliable, I could care less what the little sticker on the outside says. No matter what gets printed, someone somewhere can make claim that it's not accurate or not using the same measurement as others.

The testing I want to see is on the track. Nothing else matters. I don't use my LiPo's in a lab somewhere. I use them out on the track, if they can deliver there (and of course they are safe), they get my stamp of approval.

As for the price issue, if you think the prices are too high there is a very easy fix, don't buy them. It's that simple. Not everyone drives a BMW, not everyone wears designer clothes, not everyone buys name brand pharmaceuticals. Often times premium pricing is premium because the seller can get it! If they can, more power to them.
   
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ClodMaxx
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07.29.2009, 10:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric Dave View Post
All this talk about testing...the only number that matters to me is my laptimes. So long as the product is safe and reliable, I could care less what the little sticker on the outside says. No matter what gets printed, someone somewhere can make claim that it's not accurate or not using the same measurement as others.

The testing I want to see is on the track. Nothing else matters. I don't use my LiPo's in a lab somewhere. I use them out on the track, if they can deliver there (and of course they are safe), they get my stamp of approval.

As for the price issue, if you think the prices are too high there is a very easy fix, don't buy them. It's that simple. Not everyone drives a BMW, not everyone wears designer clothes, not everyone buys name brand pharmaceuticals. Often times premium pricing is premium because the seller can get it! If they can, more power to them.
i want to know what my hard earned money will help MAKE my lap times be. how do you do that? check the data for each battery first. otherwise it's just a shot in the dark. or don't you research what you spend your money on first?

as for the price - if 2 camaros were side by side (if that's what you like) and one was 20 grand cheaper, but the same thing, would you seriously waste the extra 20 grand on the overpriced one? now how about this: if you had a camaro sitting next to a cheap hundai, but the hundai was priced 20 grand more than the camaro, you'd laugh............right?


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Electric Dave
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07.29.2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClodMaxx View Post
i want to know what my hard earned money will help MAKE my lap times be. how do you do that? check the data for each battery first. otherwise it's just a shot in the dark. or don't you research what you spend your money on first?

as for the price - if 2 camaros were side by side (if that's what you like) and one was 20 grand cheaper, but the same thing, would you seriously waste the extra 20 grand on the overpriced one? now how about this: if you had a camaro sitting next to a cheap hundai, but the hundai was priced 20 grand more than the camaro, you'd laugh............right?
I don't think you understand what I was trying to say. Without standards, the ratings are largely meaningless. There are no standards. If the product is not up to the task of it's intended purpose, the company selling it would be forced to make good on that and I'm sure they would discontinue it/fix it. I think it's safe to say that the batteries in question can in fact power our vehicles. If it says 25c or 30c or 60c I don't care, as long as it does it's job well, and does so safely. The best way to see what battery will work best in your vehicle is to see what other guys running similar setups are using. Or you can read tests done in the Magazines, or check results from recent races. I feel that name brand companies hardly ever try to fool people into buying their products. Especially not one's who publish their phone number and address as well as their warranty policy.

As for the price issue, I would take the cheaper camaro if they were the same. The trouble is, in the real world they are never the same. The more expensive one may come with a better warranty or better support or something which can justify a price differential. I make purchase decisions based on lots of factors. It's not always as cut and dry as it seems.
   
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rawfuls
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07.29.2009, 11:54 AM

I think he's saying as long as it works, he could care less what brand, or the sticker says......

I have heard, that most, if not ALL, of the lipos are coming from China, they distribute to us, we slap a label on em, and ship em off, etc...

And I've heard that why Zippy's are so cheap, is that they ship em to Hong Kong instead to the US, Hong Kong, makes a little profit, and ships em off, as bulk...

So either way, brand over brand, they OVERALL should be the same batteries, coming from the same place, no?
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lutach
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07.29.2009, 12:03 PM

I've seen what their packs can do and it's not pretty. I compared 2 3S 3000mAh packs to my 2 3S 2200mAh packs in the same vehicle and mine put out more power and it still going strong even after some abuse in drag racing. It's only a matter of time they'll realize it's better to be realistic and gain confidence from everyone than to be part of people's jokes which makes them look bad. MA, test your products before putting them out, it'll only make you better in the long run. I would love to get a pack that can hold its voltage better at 20-25C then one a 30-40C that will almost hit my LVC.
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ClodMaxx
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07.29.2009, 12:03 PM

i know what he was saying. but 'i don't care, as long as it works' is pretty generic. 2 different packs could work, and work well....but one could give you a 5 second better lap time because it's just a little better. and in some cases, the better ones are cheaper.

with BMW, you get what you pay for. it's a premium price because it's clearly superior in a lot of areas compared to other cars that don't even belong in the same class. and they don't need a 100,000 mile warranty because it's been proven much less will happen in those miles compared to the less expensive cars that have 'better warranties and service'.


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lutach
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07.29.2009, 12:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rawfuls View Post
I think he's saying as long as it works, he could care less what brand, or the sticker says......

I have heard, that most, if not ALL, of the lipos are coming from China, they distribute to us, we slap a label on em, and ship em off, etc...

And I've heard that why Zippy's are so cheap, is that they ship em to Hong Kong instead to the US, Hong Kong, makes a little profit, and ships em off, as bulk...

So either way, brand over brand, they OVERALL should be the same batteries, coming from the same place, no?
If I were to make my own packs, I could make a killing selling at the price Hobbycity sell their packs for. It will always come down to the overhead (all of the Company's expenses) and greed (Profit).
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Finnster
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07.29.2009, 12:29 PM

I mostly agree with Dave, and I don't think this thread should be about how Austin should run his business. He can charge whatever he wants to as long as people are willing to pay it.

If you want to discuss that, it would be better to start a thread somewhere else, call him personally, vote with your wallet, or start your own lipo business and not charge so much.

I do wonder if we are getting to a point with lipos that the ratings dont matter so much in order to get the job done. Beyond 20 or 25C, they are going to be good enough for most people as you are still going to buy a batt lrg enough to get a decent runtime. I don't think this was true last year as an overrated pack (ie a 15C actual rated as 25C or so) was a danger to not being able to handle the loads.

OTOH, this is getting to be an advantage to any disreputable companies who may wish to inflate rating to keep up with market stds, knowing that the product will be ok and most people will never really know the difference.

Hence a need for stds and testing, tho I would never just go a by a manufacturers claims for C rating, just as I would never really believe a car companies claims of horse power.
   
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